Caroline and I agreed to meet in the club’s usual meeting room, 4/108. I came in a few minutes before her and took time to observe my surroundings.The first thing I noticed were the stocked tables of foods and snacks. A bottle of mayonnaise, lines of beef and cheese empanadas and pans of saucy penne, baked Mac and cheese and Chicharron de Pollo (Dominican fried chicken) filled one table in the front of the room. Chips, cookies, sodas, cups and cutlery sat on the table to the left of it. It was DSA’s Holiday potluck and the meaty aroma emanating from the food filled the room along with the typical light hearted banters and loud laughters from the DSA members. It all added to the buzzing excitement of the club’s last and festive meet up of the year. There were more members in the room at this time than there were the last time I was here. Many of the faces I saw toward the last 30 minutes of the clubs previous meetup, were present within the first 30 minutes of the clubs meeting hours. There also seemed to be even more seats in the spacious room, creating a sea of chairs that I actively avoided by sitting at the very front of the class. The room really contradicted itself in the moment. It was the perfect educational setting for a large group with it’s large chalkboards covering both ends of the room, a body of chairs, large window openings for natural light and two convenient desks. But it was also ideal for a social gathering such as this one. As the members unboxed the rest of their supplies, I saw Caroline pass me . Caroline and I made eye contact when she came in. I noticed she seemed slightly busy and moving slightly frantic as if she had a few things to complete before she could settle. I tapped her and let her know that I understood that as Vice President there are things she has to complete and reassured her that I would be patient in letting her handle business. She nodded and smiled with relief before quickly adding more food and supplies to the table.
Caroline has a peculiar look. Her face has a regal, elegant vibe with a nose tip that slightly dips toward the middle of her smile and comforting smile lines that perfectly arch from the sides of her nostrils to the corners of her brownish-pink lips. She has deep, honest feline eyes. Her skin tone is a medium sandy color that contrasts with her thick mane of dark rich ringlets that hang a few inches below her shoulders. A few clump of curls sat above her straightly defined eyebrows, giving her some bangs. Two white decorative earrings framed her oval face. Her outfit could best be described as ‘business chic’ this day as she wore a plaid blazer over a plain white long sleeve shirt with light washed mom jeans and grey boots that perfectly matched the dominant color of her sweater. Caroline is the proud Vice President of the organization despite only recently transferring to CCNY about a year ago. Although she struggled to find a group of people to connect with at her new school for a while, she was able to find a strong sense of community, friendship, and culture within the organization displaying her value and connection to her ethnic background.
Interview Dialogue:
Me: “Growing up, how did you perceive yourself racially if you did at all? Did you notice you were different? Or give yourself any labels or place yourself in any category?”
Caroline: “I guess growing up I just knew I was Dominican. I did notice a difference in my skin color…um… I was born as a white baby; My complexion was alot lighter than what it is now. And my justification for it was that I would travel a lot from DR to New York so I felt like ‘Oh! The sun mutated my skin.’ And thats why I stayed this caramel complexion. But I did notice that. And it took a little toll on me because it felt like I was treated a little differently. I don’t know. ”
Me: “Would you get comments? Cause I know that even in Black families, its not uncommon for relatives to make comments like ”Don’t stay in the sun much longer, you’re gonna get darker’.”
Caroline:”Definitely. I would definitely get comments like that especially from my mom. My mom is a lighter complexion than me. And she fears the sun. And she’s like ‘I’m not gonna be in the sun.’ She’ll go to large extents to cover her skin so it doesn’t get like ‘whatever’. If she’s on vacation she’ll soak up some sun but other than that she’s still like “Eh, I don’t wanna get darker””
Me:”Thanks for that answer. I can definitely relate. Like I remember when I was 11 people would make comments on my skin tone to the point where I would literally stay out of the sun. I was around 12, it would be lunch time and if I had to go out for recess at all the first thing I would do when I came back inside would check to see if I had gotten any darker or ask my friends if I looka ny darker. So those comments take a toll”
Caroline:”Yeah, and it kinda modifies your view of whats beautiful and what’s not. Cause like I would find myself regretting if my skin color changed. I would wonder ‘Why did my skin color change?’ and I felt I didn’t understand the change. I also felt like people wouldn’t gravitate to me because of it. It was just a notion that I had I guess”
Me:”Would you family members make comments?”
Caroline: “They would make say things and I guess I would previece it in a negative way. Because I find my mom to be a very beautiful woman and we do look alike. Like we’re each other’s twins. The only difference is that she’s the lighter twin and I’m the darker twin. The moment I noticed the difference in our complexion is when I would get self conscious or feel very not clean – dirty ”
Me: “That takes a toll I can imagine. Would you say your mom values her lightness being that she takes extra lengths to preserve it? Would you say that the actions of your mom or possibly other relatives also contributed to complexes about your skin tone?”
Caroline: “Yes. Because she felt soo…. Like I said she’s very beautiful because of her she looks. And she’s a woman of lighter complexion so because I differed from that I felt like I wasn’t as beautiful from her. But she always did tell me that I had a beautiful unique skin tone. ”
Me: “So I know that social privileges that stem from race can be very complicated. It’s not Black and White – no pun intended. For example certain features that get you special treatment in one environment can get you looked down upon in another. Did you ever feel like your phenotype gave you advantages and/or disadvantages in certain spaces? If so how? By phenotype I mean skin tone, hair textures, facial features even”
Caroline: “I would say yes and no. Yes now because when people describe me they tend to say that I look ‘exotic’. I’ve learned to love that because before I used to get mad when someone said I looked anything but Dominican. So I look like I could be Middle Eastern or Indian and get questions like that a lot. So a perk would be when they say me I come off as more approachable to those groups. So sometimes at places like Kennedy friend chicken (where that demographic works) I would get the men flirting with me or giving me extra plates. Within my Hispanic community since I don’t look typicall hispanic many approach me in a distant hostile way. But when they hear me speak Spanish or the accent they’re really surprised. ”
*We briefly talk about this interesting fact of her life, especially considering how diverse Dominicans are physically*
Me: “Have you noticed Any Anti-Haitian sentiments around you growing up from members of your culture?”
Caroline:”I have noticed. There’s always this notion that they’re trying to take away what we have. But in reality I don’t feel like it’s that way. I feel like people are just afraid of what they don’t understand or know. And I feel like it has to do with an ego thing. Some people don’t like to be challenged and if they are they make it seem like it’s something negative. Like what if some Haitians just want to be apart of our community because they see value in our community? Why can’t we just coexist without taking away what makes us different but using that to empower both of us? But I do see a lot of this mentality in the community.”
Me:”Do you believe that anti-Haitian sentiments and anti-Black attitudes in your community overlap in the community?”
Caroline:”I feel like they correlate. Yeah. People see things in a very black and white way and don’t care to look beyond the superficial. So although there are different strands of what makes someone Dominican or Hispanic it’s the same thing when you’re Black or Haitian. Like, people just treat people going on whether someone is a certain color or whether it correlates with their name. Like me for example I’m the ‘Indian Bitch’. If someone doesn’t know me it’s like ‘Who’s this Indian bitch?’”
Me: “And then the last question would be, how do you feel about certain identifications among Dominican people? Like I know that many Dominicans refer to themselves as ‘Spanish’ even though technically Spanish people are citizens of Spain and Dominicans are made up of multiple backgrounds. Some also identify as Afro-Dominican. Do you think these identities are something that can unify your group or be divisive? Would you personally identify with any of them”
Caroline: “Me personally, I don’t like to constrict myself to any labels- I actually detest it. But I do entertain the idea of just being Dominican. I do believe everyone has the right to identify how they want even if it may not be technically accurate. I do feel that people are free to categorize themselves how they want to but they shouldn’t impose it on anyone else. I also do believe that we have Blackness inside of us. We come from descendants of Africa but people are not ready to have that conversation.”
Caroline and I were very vulnerable with one another and had an open conversation in how anti-blackness manifested within her culture growing up. As melanated people and members of the African diaspora we could both relate to being subconsciously indoctrinated with negative beliefs about our skin tone. Caroline didn’t shy away from the fact that this correlates with how some Dominicans perceive their identity and xenophobia towards Haitians within the country. Despite the pride and love she has toward her culture she was able to be candid about how certain mentalities affected her negatively and acknowledged how it could affect how Haitians are seen too. We ended the interview on a positive note, with Caroline choosing to respect how the members of her culture identify and suggesting that society should celebrate group differences rather than look down on them.
